Steve Price (00:02)

Hi welcome everybody to the Safetytech Accelerator’s Insight Series. I’m Steve Price and today I’ve got with me Kaisa Nikulainen who’s the CEO of Rotoboost. Thanks very much for coming in.

And our conversation is going be around decarbonization, which I guess is the world industrial world’s biggest challenge we have at the moment. Before I ask Kaisa to introduce herself, I’d just like to say a couple of words about the Safetytech Accelerator itself. We were established in 2018 by Lloyd’s Register, and we’re the first technology accelerator really focused on the complexities of the safety critical industries.

Our mission is to streamline innovation and accelerate technology into the space. And we do this really to try and unlock the productivity and mitigate risks and make achievable, sustainable and safety resilience. So that’s why we’re doing it. But anyway, that’s enough about us. I think going forward, what I’d like to do now is just ask Kaisa to introduce herself and Rotoboost maybe tell us a little bit about why they exist.

 

Kaisa (01:10)

Okay, so thank you very much, Steve. So, yeah, myself, I’ve been in the chemical slash energy industry since 2007. I’ve worked internationally in several countries. In Europe, I’m originally from Finland, but I worked other countries as well, as well as Middle East and Asia. And I’m currently based in Shanghai for the past four years.

I’ve started my own business since 2018 and I have been doing mostly or been mostly in this environmental protection and also emission reduction space for the past multiple years. And as a company, we do mostly for marine, we tackle the pre -combustion carbon removal challenge. So we remove carbon before it is combusted.

as well as produce low carbon hydrogen for land -based industries for downstream users like steel makers and petrochemical users. the problem, main problem that we are there to solve is to reduce carbon emissions for hard to abate industries economically and scalably. So that has been a real challenge for most companies and we are on our way to get there.

 

Steve Price (02:32)

wow, okay.

 

Kaisa (02:33)

So that’s what we want to do.

 

Steve Price (02:35)

Right, yeah, it’s not simple challenge, is it? Okay, so perhaps you could give us a bit of an idea of how the technology works.

 

Kaisa (02:45)

Sure. So our technology is based on thermocatalystic decomposition of natural gas. So essentially we break methane and any other hydrocarbon gases like ethane, propane, butane into hydrogen and solid carbon with thermal energy. So we use some for ship, we would use some of the LNG stream and catalyst, so at a lower temperature.

to efficiently produce hydrogen with less CO2 emissions in the process. So this is much less polluting than traditional hydrogen production. So more than four times less emissions compared to steam methane reforming, for example. And we feed this hydrogen then to downstream engines, boilers or fuel cells, and we store the solid carbon. So instead of producing CO2, we remove the CO2 before it is combusted.

 

Steve Price (03:42)

Okay, so what’s the advantage of creating solid carbon rather than CO2? What’s the main difference?

 

Kaisa (03:49)

So why solid carbon? Basically, solid carbon is not taking oxygen from the atmosphere. So we are not storing oxygen on the voyage. what is the difference? Essentially, it’s 3 .6 times lighter than carbon dioxide. So you can imagine. And also we are solid. So we take far less space than liquid carbon dioxide.

And in addition, because it’s a bulk material, can store it in prismatic tanks. So therefore, space for carbon storage is not an issue, whereas it would be an issue for most ships with carbon dioxide.

 

Steve Price (04:31)

Yeah, so what would an installation look like on a ship? mean, how would this work?

 

Kaisa (04:38)

So how would it look like? So basically we take… So the system is a modular box around 150 square meters to 250 square meters. We would store it either on the deck, if it’s a cargo ship, or in the machinery space, if it’s a container ship or a cruise ship or whatever. And

Also, we have a possibility to have it in the backpack of the ship. those are the basically three locations where we would have it. And that’s where we have the hydrogen reactors. So we basically feed LNG into these systems around 8 to 15 bar pressure and then deliver the formed reacted hydrogen at slightly lower pressure to the end users. And we do not use a lot of electricity.

As mentioned, most of our energy is from the heat. And with our efficient catalysts, we don’t need that much of it either. So we are able to achieve this emission reduction, which is the whole point. And the good thing for especially for LNG carriers is that there is for older ones, especially there is a lot of excess BOG, so boil of gas. So we are also able to take that and then utilize that fully through our system and then blend in the hydrogen to the end users, especially for older vessels which have boiler systems, because those are able to take slightly higher percentages of hydrogen already now compared to engines. So that’s an immediate prospect basically in that marine industry.

So what we do with that is we are actually able to address both the CO2, carbon dioxide, and methane slip. So we are doing this simultaneously with the same equipment. How does this happen? Basically because we are producing hydrogen. Hydrogen is blended then to the end user and the end user emissions are reduced. So the methane emissions because we are replacing part of their fuel with hydrogen or the methane fuel with hydrogen.

Therefore, the replacement helps and in addition also for four stroke engines especially, this replacement helps to also burn the remaining methane much more efficiently. So that’s a real benefit. Go ahead.

 

Steve Price (07:15)

So we’re that basically we blend in hydrogen into the fuel mixture. Basically, then we can almost get rid of the methane slip out of the normal carbon engine because it’s burning more efficiently and it’s burning all of the methane. Okay, so that’s a great benefit.

 

Kaisa (07:25)

Correct.

 

Correct, so some engine makers mentioned, sorry, yeah, most engine makers mentioned like above 50 % blend means that you basically don’t have methane emissions, which is a great thing. And at the same time, with above 50%, you’re lowering your emissions at least 30%.

 

Steve Price (07:34)

Yeah, go ahead.

 

all right okay

 

Wow, okay. So we can see on the ship then that we’re taking off the gas from maybe boil off gas or whatever it is, that you’re creating the hydrogen and then the hydrogen has been then used to embracely improve the methane efficiency of the fuel. So we’re actually having a direct impact on the methane emissions at the same time as creating the solid carbon and I guess you could use the hydrogen for other things as well. mean, if you had hydrogen fuels.

 

Kaisa (08:04)

Correct.

 

Correct, correct.

Yeah, the hydrogen you use downstream basically, because that’s the energy. So that’s the energy that you need to use instead of the methane. So that’s for the downstream engine or boiler or fuel cell. In some cases, we are looking at even fuel cell usage. But yeah, it has variable uses for different ones. And you can use similar fuel supply systems as with traditional LNG. And also we have gun marine AIPs from LR.

 

Steve Price (08:19)

Yeah.

 

Yeah.

 

Kaisa (08:44)

ABS, RINA and BV for this system based on IGF code as well. So it’s very much seen as a safe alternative because we don’t store hydrogen, we burn it immediately. So,

 

Steve Price (08:59)

Okay, So what’s the, if I’m a ship owner or operator, why would I want to jump into this? What’s in it for me?

 

Kaisa (09:09)

So I guess the cost of abatement is the biggest issue for a ship owner, I would say. So the equivalent CO2 abatement cost for us is significantly lower than for traditional carbon capture. So that’s in the hundred, hundred, hundred or over a hundred dollars cheaper than for carbon capture. So I would say per ton of CO2.

That is a significant saving over the lifetime of the vessel. In addition to that, traditional CO2 capture cannot take care of methane slip reduction at the same time. So you would need another piece of equipment for that. So you would need to have two equipment and two capex and also two sets of electrical usage, because both would take extra electricity. So we don’t have that issue and our cost is, or even capex

 

Steve Price (09:57)

Yeah.

 

Kaisa (10:04)

lower than for traditional CCUS because we don’t have these compressors or large electrical users or sea tanks. So that’s another benefit there

 

Steve Price (10:15)

So what happens to the carbon you’ve created?

 

Kaisa (10:18)

The carbon is graphite and we have studied it and used it with some of our collaborators for battery conductive agent for example. It’s an excellent material for that. It performs really well and also we are using it for tires. It’s not carbon black but it can replace carbon black because it’s microcrystalline graphite. That’s also onemassive potential usage when we start to produce more. Since you cannot always go to battery grade because that’s still a massive market but still has its limits. Whereas for tires, 30 % of the tire weight is carbon.

So that’s a massive end user for that. And also for plastics, biochar and for steel making industry. So those are the big, big users for this and for all of those applications our carbon is suitable.

 

Steve Price (11:20)

So how do you see these getting to the stage where actually industrial users are using your carbon? What challenges have you got in that space?

 

Kaisa (11:28)

So I guess it is more about the geographical challenges. So most of the carbon still globally is produced in China. And we would be producing most of our carbon outside of China. So creating the supply chain outside of China is definitely a challenge. But luckily for us, China banned the export of battery -grade graphite last year. So there is a huge shortage in other locations.

 

Steve Price (11:36)

Yeah.

 

Yeah,

 

Kaisa (11:58)

the industry is ramping up there. So we have lot of interest for the carbon production more so than our hydrogen production, which is very interesting for us at this stage. So that’s a very growing market. Go ahead.

 

Steve Price (12:06)

No.

 

So there’s a super in there.

 

So as a zoom in operator, we can end up with a scenario where, you know, actually eliminating methane slip and capturing carbon on board actually becomes a profitable business because actually there’s a value to what we’re creating, a significant value potentially. Yeah.

 

Kaisa (12:24)

All right.

 

Correct. Correct. especially in the case where we have BOG, which is free. So if the BOG is excess BOG, then our abatement cost is negative. yeah, there it’s especially attractive.

 

Steve Price (12:40)

Right, okay. Yeah. So that’s great. effectively using the energy field. Yeah, very, that sounds amazing. So it certainly sounds like there’s an opportunity for the LNG world to get on board with this sort of technology. so I’m assuming that then what the infrastructure you’re talking about is the ability to offload the carbon that, you know, when you come to port and things like that and the ability to then get it to where you need to be. Okay.

 

Kaisa (12:47)

Correct.

 

Correct. So the infrastructure there is already existing. So basically it’s traditional bulk methods. So for example, for LNG carriers, because it’s not allowed to do SIMOPS in terminal anyhow. So when they offload their normal trash or on load food supplies and this they use a PSV. This kind of PSVs also usually have bulk capacity so they can take bulk carbon out.

 

Steve Price (13:23)

Yeah.

 

Kaisa (13:34)

as well. So the vessel is existing, but we just need to refit hoses and compressors. So that’s the beauty of it. So you can do it simultaneously with other offloading and loading for even LNG carriers. And whereas for cruise ships and other ships that go to a port, then of course you are able to do it with a port stationary unloading devices. So that takes maybe 30 minutes to three hours, depending on the volume.

 

Steve Price (13:40)

Yeah.

 

Kaisa (14:03)

of the carbon.

 

Steve Price (14:03)

Yeah, okay. Yeah, all right. Okay, well, that’s really interesting. So, so perhaps, I mean, that’s great to hear about that. Maybe you tell us a little bit about what’s going on outside of the shipping industry and, know, and with this technology. I mean, because you obviously talked about production behind it.

 

Kaisa (14:20)

Certainly so.

 

We are working with quite many oil companies at this moment, so publicly with Petronas. We have several pilots running already in China, but we are also delivering for Petronas a commercial pilot and for others as well. Basically, they are using it for traditional oil and gas, but why they want to use our system is we have lower emissions, much lower emissions than the other alternatives and we are able to produce hydrogen affordably.

So those are the two reasons why others are using us. So therefore also other industries like steel making, which are transitioning to more greener technologies are also interested in our technology for the hydrogen production first and then also for the carbon because for each ton of steel you use around 12 kilograms of carbon.

So that’s another attractive and interesting industry for us. But these industries, are lagging behind the marine industry in a sense of legislation. So marine industry, luckily for us, they have a clear legislation in place and a timeline in place. And for us also, there are volumes there that can be addressed like all the LNG fuel ships. And we are very much interested in that space for us.

 

Steve Price (15:47)

Yeah.

 

Kaisa (15:52)

Also, the system size is fairly controllable and we are able to make the system very modular. Whereas for land -based installations, those are like massive standalone installations. in our development stage, we are able to address the marine industry more readily

 

Steve Price (16:09)

Well, that’s great to hear that. I mean, that’s brilliant. And we wish you luck with that. I know we have already had a lot of interest from certainly partners who are on methane abatement program. So perhaps you could tell us a little bit how you’ve worked with the Safetytech Accelerator.

 

Kaisa (16:16)

Thank you so much.

 

So about Safetytech Accelerator, it has actually been really, really great. So it’s, I think, the only fact -based platform that has like efficiently opened the eyes for industrial decision makers regarding this issue, methane slip especially. And it’s extremely well project managed and all of the projects have clear milestones, rare in any industry now, even delivery industry from the customer point of view or any other place.

What’s good about it is that actually it requires proof that it works. You have to make a convincing study. The customer needs to buy in as well. And you need to have these weekly sessions to check on the progress and see that everything is going well.

For any new technology, the entry barrier is both technical and commercial and in the validation of this. And for third parties that aren’t usually looking at new technologies, they’re in passive role, not trying to promote it or not trying to actually move things along. I think Safetytech Accelerator and MAMII especially are actively scouting for both technologies and suitable customers who are willing to move things along.

So it’s much less passive. And we actually hope that this is not only like an accelerator, but an idea amplifier. And also able to reach out regulatory bodies and policymakers how this kind of technologies can transform the negative connotations around natural gas and methane emissions and how actually there is a positive change happening in the industry to mitigate these problems.

 

Steve Price (18:15)

Yes, thanks. So in fact, Rotoboost is one of our technology companies within the methane abatement in maritime innovation initiative, which is one of our large safety tech grows large collaborative programs. And we have 20 shipping companies and oil majors involved in it. together, we’re basically trying to remove methane emissions from from LNG fuel use and where that does involve a lot of work around technology companies like Rotoboost but also around, you know, the EU and IMO and the standards and trying to in particular get a, you know, a standard for testing and measuring this stuff because at moment we’re a bit short on regulation in that space.

And also making sure that the regulation in fact actually encourages development like Rotoboost because we want to encourage this as quick as possible, as much as possible for the industry because the end of the day we are trying to decarbonize.

I think this is probably the end of our chat. It’s been great to talk to you. I know you’re exceptionally busy and, you know, as being a CEO, amazing tech company. And so it’s been great to talk to you. For those of you out there, this is a series of insight interviews we do. Feel free to visit the safetytechaccelerator .org website and have a look at what we’re Emerging technology shows basically amazing promise for a lot

 

Kaisa (19:10)

Yeah. Thank you. No, thank you, Steve.

 

Steve Price (19:39)

corporate, whether you’re a ship owner or operator, but actually trying to choose whether invest is really quite difficult and that’s where partnering with like Safetytech Accelerator can really help. But anyway, thanks very much, really good to have you with us and thank you again. Bye everybody.

 

Kaisa (19:50)

Thank you so much. Thank you. Thank you so much, Steve. Thank you. Thank you. Bye bye. Bye.